vhs tapes to computer / digitizing

[dhream]

Hi sorry if this has been asked before, but my searches here did not find answers...

I would try Google, but many of you have large VHS collections as fellow raincoaters, and its known that raincoaters are 'early adopters' of the latest and greates in image manipulation, so...

What software or hardware is best to get all my lovely classic porn off my aging VHS tapes and into your download engines where they belong?

I have a DVD player and a DVD recorder, and a VCR but I understand there is a box I need to get to convert the signal. please guys, help! I want to be a part of this community and give a lot back!

Thanks! D.

[bluenoise]

I'm not sure I understand the question. You would seem to have everything you need. Connect your VCR to your DVD recorder and copy the tapes to DVD. Then put the recorded DVD into your computer and rip to the desired format. You don't need any more hardware. Am I missing something?

[DubSalute]

VHS recorder > SCART > HD/DVD recorder.

Thats most easy you play your VHS have the VCR connected to the DVD recorder and then record first to the HD and then copy from HD to DVD-R. or also possible directly to DVD-R, personally i use to HD first so that when something goes wrong or not perfect you will not loose a DVD-R.

[bluenoise]

I think it's going a little far to assume that dhream needs a SCART cable. Many don't have a SCART connector, in which case all that's needed is two or three coax cables, probably with RCA connectors (one for composite video, two for audio - assuming stereo). DubSalute is on the mark about recording to the HD first, though.

[DubSalute]

Many don't have a SCART connector, in which case all that's needed is two or three coax cables, probably with RCA connectors (one for composite video, two for audio - assuming stereo).
Could be i'm only familiar with SCART.

One remark on the side: i noticed with my DVD recorder is that its best to use the -R and -RW DVD's to write to when you want to edit/convert the VOBs on your computer i had problems with the format that was writen to the +R/+RW disks, somehow its different to the data writen to the - format on my set-up.

[zorin]

As bluenoise said, you basically have everything you need to start out with.

One thing to keep in mind is that analogue signals are affected by the quality of the connectors (i.e. the plugs) and cable used to interconnnect the equipment with. In general the cables supplied with a VCR or DVD recorder are of medium to low quality.
A good quality cable will cost you a bit (in my neck of the woods around 60 euros) but the result is noticable (IMO).
In general a good cable will be noticeably thicker than the cables supplied with your equipment and have gold plated connectors (better connection, better signal quality).

Personally I favour using a PC video capture card for transferring analogue video to digital because the driver software allows me to tweak the settings for each and every capture.
A DVD recorder will use the same generalized settings for each and every capture which will yield acceptable results in most cases.

Video capture cards can be external (USB or firewire) or internal (PCI). Canopus and Pinnacle are among the most well known brands.
For external video capture cards I would advise going for a firewire version (if your PC has a firewire connector) as its transfer speed is higher than usb.

When capturing video to PC it is best to capture to avi format and not mpg as avi is easier to edit.
After capturing you can edit and polish up your video via VirtualDub (that's a video editing program not DubSalute's digital alter ego ;) ). There's a wide range of filters available with which you can brush up your video before posting it here at VEF :)

Z

[groovesection]

When capturing video to PC it is best to capture to avi format and not mpg


Thats not true,mpeg is the better way to record,
mpeg is interlaced (two fields) the same as analouge/digital TV,VHS tapes and also DVD

mpeg recordings WILL be nuch better quality,
If you want to convert to avi its better to do post recording.
record it as an mpeg then when using Virtualdub you can de-interlace to blend the two fields.



Another point i should add regarding VHS to DVD is..
You have to be aware some VHS tapes have macro vision protection on them,so connecting the VHS to a DVD recorder will be useless,you`ll start the recording and after 10 seconds you`ll get a "this is copy righted" screen
You will need a (hardware) device
http://www.xdimax.com/dvd/dvdredpro.html
to remove this
or a hack for the DVD recorder (firmware update)
Cant add a link as i dont know your DVD recorder`s brand and its illegal lol

[bluenoise]

Another point i should add regarding VHS to DVD is..
You have to be aware some VHS tapes have macro vision protection on them,so connecting the VHS to a DVD recorder will be useless,you`ll start the recording and after 10 seconds you`ll get a "this is copy righted" screen
You will need a (hardware) device
http://www.xdimax.com/dvd/dvdredpro.html
to remove this
or a hack for the DVD recorder (firmware update)
Cant add a link as i dont know your DVD recorder`s brand and its illegal lol

Nothing the slightest bit illegal about it. The copyright laws are quite clear about permitting you to make backups or copy to a different format for personal use.

Yeah, you may run into problems with macrovision. I didn't buy an extra box to strip it off, though. I found that if I pass the video through my Handicam (it's a Sony Digital-8) en route to the DVD recorder, the copy protection disappears. I go composite from the VCR to the camera, and firewire from the camera to the DVD.

[groovesection]

You have mis-understood me bluenoise,
i was refering to the hacked firmware (for the dvd recorder) as being illegal

I know you can legally back up any cd/dvd you physically own,you can even do it with your OS

:D

[bluenoise]

You have mis-understood me bluenoise,
i was refering to the hacked firmware (for the dvd recorder) as being illegal


Oh, okay. Is that a DMCA thing? If so, I think it would fail if tested in court. If it's legal to copy (e.g. xfer from tape to disk) for one's own use, then it cannot be illegal to enable the recorder (via hacked firmware) to make that legal copy. That's just common sense.

Maybe under Obama the US will begin to return to sanity a little and we'll see the repeal of the DMCA, one of the dumbest laws on the books.

[dhream]

I'm not sure I understand the question. You would seem to have everything you need. Connect your VCR to your DVD recorder and copy the tapes to DVD. Then put the recorded DVD into your computer and rip to the desired format. You don't need any more hardware. Am I missing something?

bluenoise, I have tried this method with limited success, the picture quality suffers greatly, even more than when we alll used to dupe VHS to VHS. with the electromagnetic 'pulses' and the copy does not initiate at all or there are bars of noise on the copy making it unwatchable. However your later post mentions you pass your VCR signal THROUGH your Sony Vidcam to eliminate copy protection, what a great bit of lateral thinking! I have a Sony too, but my GF has taken it overseas... I may get it back by xmas (in one piece ;p)

dubsalute, it sounds like SCART connectors may eliminate the issues I have, but bluenoise was correct in suggesting I don't have SCART enabled kit. Here in Australia we use COAX (yellow white red) cables to hook up VCRs to other stuff. Your information about the discs is really useful! You may have saved me a lot of money (I tend to buy in bulk).

zorin, spoken like a true audiophile! I have IXOS and TITAN interconnects going to my Audiolab Amp that feeds my B&W speakers.... maybe I should look at the rubbish I'm using to hook up the VCR? Back when, (egad! my 15 yo VCR is almost 'legal'!) I was too poor, and the technology didn't warrant it -I've never thought to upgrade, until now. Thanks for the additional video capture info as well.

gs1, you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what I was looking for. (It frees up my Vidcam so I can make home movies with the GF -that's her arse in my avatar!) I've also appreciated the other side-discussion that developed over which formats to work with, and the editiing/polishing info.

As a footnote, it looks like the next generation of interconnectivity (in my part of the world) will be HDMI, I'm also hearing promising things about blu-ray storage capacity...

Anyway, My first uploads (I'm a bit too busy at the mo' but hope to start these before Xmas) will be my present under the wood, er, tree, to you all.

Thanks!

[DubSalute]

Personally I favour using a PC video capture card for transferring analogue video to digital because the driver software allows me to tweak the settings for each and every capture.
Small question on capture cards will that allow tweaking brightness/contrast/colors balance by working with the driver settings ? what can you tweak ?

With my DVD/HD recorder i can only set XP>SP>LP>EP where XP is the highest bitrate.

[zorin]

Small question on capture cards will that allow tweaking brightness/contrast/colors balance by working with the driver settings ? what can you tweak ?

With my DVD/HD recorder i can only set XP>SP>LP>EP where XP is the highest bitrate.


I can set the bitrate and compression factor separately plus adjust the brightness, contrast, sharpness, hue and saturation of the picture.

Personally I prefer to adjust the picture quality in post-production i.e. not during capture but there are times when it is useful to beef things up a bit from the start.
Don't know if all capture cards have drivers that allow you to do all this.

I've tried an external usb capture device recently and wasn't impressed with the quality delivered. It came nowhere near the quality of my aging pinnacle card and the driver basically had the same settings you mentioned.

Z

[zorin]

Thats not true,mpeg is the better way to record,
mpeg is interlaced (two fields) the same as analouge/digital TV,VHS tapes and also DVD

mpeg recordings WILL be nuch better quality,
If you want to convert to avi its better to do post recording.
record it as an mpeg then when using Virtualdub you can de-interlace to blend the two fields.


What I said was capture to avi format and not mpg as avi is easier to edit

Mpeg is a final output format, avi is generally viewed as the better choice if you want to do editing.
There's a good explanation here : http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/intro.htm
There's also some capture card info there as well.


Since dhream wants to capture his aging vhs tapes I'm assuming he'll have to do some editing that's why I mentioned it.
I recommend it based on my own experience and do not intend to start an argument about which format is best and should thus always be used.
Basically everyone has to determine what works best for them and use that.

Z

[groovesection]

You have mis-understood me!

mpeg & avi are as easy to edit a each other,
with mpeg you can edit in videoredo and direct stream copy
with avi you can edit in virtualdub and direct stream copy
so they are easy to edit as each other

HOWEVER

mpeg is interlaced (made up of two fields odd & even)
this is how analouge TV/digital TV and DVD`s & VHS tapes are.they are interlaced
go and read this,you might learn something :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlace

avi is not interlaced (it uses progressive scan)
and as such recording to avi will mean de-interlacing will take place,either the two fileds will be blended (best option) or 1 feild will be dropped,meaning 50% of the data in each frame will be lost,meaning lower quality!!

Also recording to avi means the encodng is done on the fly and this produces poor results! due to the fact de-interlacing is taking place and also compression is being aplied

I certainly am not looking to argue/cause a conflict,Im simply trying to help dhream get the best results from his transferal of VHS to digital,
He would be better off recording to mpeg,then either converting that to avi and editing it,or simply editing the mpeg then converting to avi,
this will ensure the best quality possible (coupled with a 2 pass encode)

Read that article on Wiki regarding interlacing and hopefully you`ll understand where i am coming from by reccomending recording to mpeg over avi :D

[zorin]

You have mis-understood me!
<snip>
avi is not interlaced (it uses progressive scan)
and as such recording to avi will mean de-interlacing will take place,either the two fileds will be blended (best option) or 1 feild will be dropped,meaning 50% of the data in each frame will be lost,meaning lower quality!!

Also recording to avi means the encodng is done on the fly and this produces poor results! due to the fact de-interlacing is taking place and also compression is being aplied
<snip>
Read that article on Wiki regarding interlacing and hopefully you`ll understand where i am coming from by reccomending recording to mpeg over avi :D

I didn't misunderstand, but you are in error concerning AVI.

AVI is a container format and as such the video data in it can be compressed in any way depending on the codec used. This can be either interlaced or de-interlaced.

Capture cards which capture to AVI will do so using the M-JPEG format which most certainly interlaced (both fields are captured) so no loss of quality there.

May I suggest in turn you read the wiki entries on both avi and motion jpeg ?

[Sid ney]

AVI is only a container, which can accommodate any number of codec monstrosities. If you have a digital tape source, you're best off importing as an uncompressed/raw* AVI into Adobe Premiere, or your chosen editor. Do all the work there. mpeg2, ideally, should only be the final, resulting file before writing to dvd.

VHS>DVD recorder results in an mpeg2 compliant *.vob or *.vro file on disc. I use this (http://www.womble.com/products/dvd.html) simple program to tidy things up.

*Takes a lot of HD space.

[chiwa]

I have ton of stuff that I bought on VHS, and recorded to DVD in 4 hour mode. It looked good to me in that form, but if I rip it and convert it, will it be worth the time? There is some of my bad editing, (pause one, pause the other), to lose the guys cumshot face, but I haven't tried one yet. I have enough real DVD's to keep me busy for awhile, but if anyone knows how my other stuff may turn out, let me know.
Thanks will follow!!

[groovesection]

Capture cards which capture to AVI will do so using the M-JPEG format which most certainly interlaced (both fields are captured) so no loss of quality there.

May I suggest in turn you read the wiki entries on both avi and motion jpeg ?

I offer my sincerest apologies,I was mis-informed regarding capture cards that capture to Avi,I was under the mis-conception that avi is only ever progressive scan,(how wrong was i lol)

Thank you for bringing this to my attention and i apologise for my mis-informed post.

As the "kids" would say..
"i got served"

:D :D

[zorin]

I offer my sincerest apologies,I was mis-informed regarding capture cards that capture to Avi,I was under the mis-conception that avi is only ever progressive scan,(how wrong was i lol)

Thank you for bringing this to my attention and i apologise for my mis-informed post.

As the "kids" would say..
"i got served"

:D :D

Apologies weren't really necessary gs1, but they are appreciated.
I'm glad to have been able to clear a few matters up for you.

I have ton of stuff that I bought on VHS, and recorded to DVD in 4 hour mode. It looked good to me in that form, but if I rip it and convert it, will it be worth the time? There is some of my bad editing, (pause one, pause the other), to lose the guys cumshot face, but I haven't tried one yet. I have enough real DVD's to keep me busy for awhile, but if anyone knows how my other stuff may turn out, let me know.
Thanks will follow!!

If your intention is to rip the resulting DVD and convert it to AVI or MPEG
then there won't be any improvement in the resulting image.

Re-capturing the original VHS tape with the aid of a capture card might
give better results but will involve more work. It is not a simple "one click does
the trick" job.
With a capture card you can adjust the compression settings to get the best
capture result. But this will only give you a digital copy of the VHS version.
To improve the image will require editing and tinkering with filter settings using a variety of filters.
Whether the time required for doing all this is worth it, is up to you to decide.

If you still have the titles of your VHS stuff, it might be easier to first find out whether there's a good digital copy of it already floating around the net somewhere and simply download that.

Z

[chiwa]

I didn't expect an improvement, but hoped to maintain what I have at a decent file size. I have cut out a few scenes, and people are downloading them, so they can't that bad. The original tapes are long gone, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have copied everything in 2hr mode. Shit, at one time I tossed over 100 DVD's in a move, but I kept all the best. Mostly late 90's euro girls which get moved when I post them. The date may not be right, but girls mostly have bush, real tits, and the guys can cum w/o a CUT, jackoff on her face.

[control840]

If I may throw in my two cents: has anyone here tried Dazzle? It's a CD w/software and a hardware device that connects your VCR to your comp. Anyone? I got a TON of movies I want to post.

[digipixz]

Hi
Im new to your excellent site, so hi to everyone from me! I was wondering what the best way is to convert VHS tapes into avi or mpg or wmv files. It seems like there must be some experts here, some are very good quality. I have tried using a USB capture thing, but I end up with either enormous files (about 8gb an hour!) or rubbish quality.
Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Many Thanks

Paul

[profquatermass]

You typically digitise the footage at a reasonable rate, say no more than 320x480 as VHS is only about 250 lines in quality.

Then once you've captured it, convert it to a space saving format like DivX, this'll make your .avi file pretty small.
(Look up DivX site on Google)

Sounds like you're capturing at far too high a quality setting.

Even SVHS tape is only 400lines on a good day.

[haldane4]

I found the best and least complicated way is simply to invest in a standalone DVD Recorder and copy my tapes to DVDR. Then I can rip them to my PC as avi or mpg using free ripping software which you can generally find online.

This method pays for itself in time and effort because ripping directly to a PC via USB or TV card can throw up all sorts of problems, especially with sync, and unless you know exactly what you're doing and exactly what you want, it can be infuriating.

[illuminated]

I have a DVD/VHS combo, so all you have to do is to insert a blank DVD and the VHS you want to rip.
Press record to DVD on the remote control.
When you are done with that, take the DVD to your PC and start with the convertion.

I get VOB files and start with converting them with a program called MPG Streamclip. So now i have one large mpg file.
Now there's only one convertion left (to avi) and for that i use AutoGK, with that i can set the size of the movie (i make them 700mb).

And you are all done :)

[crandy]

i would say capture in avi as uncompressed as possible then convert your file down with multiple pass encoding that is the correct way to do it to keep as much quality from the original source as possible ... even if the source is low quality
only downside to this is you need lots of hard drive space

having an 8gb file for an hour of video is perfectly normal in fact when i capture video from my dv cam (dv tape) 720x576 the files are around 14gb an hour (dv codec/uncompressed pcm audio)

if i wanted to convert the dv down to standard sized avi files (8 to 10mb a min)
i would do at least a 2 pass encode with a bitrate of around 1000kbps (depends on resolution, bigger need more bits) obviously you can increase the bitrate to a higher level but you are talking about vhs captures here so 1000kbps should suffice

to do a multiple pass encode is easy .... most video programs have advanced codec settings that allow you to set what type of encoding you want to do with a codec
for example xvid's options have several options 2 of which are "2 pass 1st pass" and "2 pass 2nd pass" (divx has the same except "2pass 2nd pass" says "2 pass n'th pass")

what you would do is load your captured video in a video encoding application
select the video options and look for codec/compression settings
select xvid or divx and then look for a codec settings button
select "2pass 1st pass" first and start the encoding ......

once that has finnished you would then go back to the codec settings and change the setting from 2pass 1st pass to 2pass 2nd pass .... set your bitrate and start the encoding process for a second time......(you can overwrite the first pass file as its not needed)
this method takes twice as long to do as a quick encode but the quality is much higher, this is standard practise for those that "know" and even more passes will result in better quality/file size.... but only if your a bit anal about it :p

dont forget to also compress the audio as well on the second pass

to make things easier grab mediacoder (free) that has a setting for 2 pass encoding
so it does all the steps needed in one go... its not the easiest begginer tool to use but it can be set up in a "simple mode"

and last but not least the time it takes to encode a video depends on your cpu speed as well as other factors ...... allow at least the time it will take to play the file to encode it with a single pass for computers running single core around 2ghz ...... for me with a quadcore @3.4ghz and a hd 5870 it takes around 15min per pass (1hr30min of video)

[digipixz]

Brilliant! Many thanks for your replies, ill get to work!

[XavieraHolland]

Brilliant! Many thanks for your replies, ill get to work!
Same here:)
it was infuriating:mad:

[Denaniel]

I have a DVD/VHS combo, so all you have to do is to insert a blank DVD and the VHS you want to rip.
Press record to DVD on the remote control.
When you are done with that, take the DVD to your PC and start with the conversion.

I get VOB files and start with converting them with a program called MPG Streamclip. So now i have one large mpg file.
Now there's only one convertion left (to avi) and for that i use AutoGK...

I agree with illuminated, except that he seems to have an extra step in there that is IMO unnecessary.

After using the DVD/VHS combo (i.e. a DVD recorder = standalone player that plays VHS and DVD, recording from one to the other), I rip the DVD onto my hard drive using DVD Decrypter (freeware), which creates a VIDEO_TS folder with .ifo, .bup and .vob files. You can then open this VIDEO_TS folder in AutoGK and convert directly to AVI, using XviD. There is no need for the intermediate conversion with MPG Streamclip.

One caveat: most DVD recorders offer a choice of video quality, e.g. (from highest to lowest quality) XP, SP, LP, EP. You should use the highest quality setting that will allow your vid to fit on a single layer DVD (4.7 GB). For a vid over one hour but under three and a half hours, this usually means SP mode. I have used XP mode for hour-long films with a noticeable improvement over SP.

If you don't want to play your vids on a standard DVD player that plays DivX and XviD files, or if you have a bluray player, I would recommend using Handbrake and encoding with x264 instead of XviD (Handbrake and x264 are both freeware). The x264 codec has much higher compression than XviD or DivX, so you either get a smaller file with the same image quality, or an improved image for the same size file. For example, a 700 MB vid encoded with x264 will nearly always look better than the same size file encoded with XviD or DivX at the same resolution. On the other hand, x264 takes more CPU power to encode and decode, so older machines have a harder time with it, and as mentioned earlier, x264 will not play on standalone DVD players that play AVI files.

See my tutorial on encoding DVD to x264 here:

http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/t94503-encoding-dvd-to-x264.html

The tutorial is catered to using MeGUI, which is not as easy as Handbrake, but allows more tweaking and the option of producing bluray compatible files, so you can put a few dozen movies on a bluray disc and play them on your HDTV.

[groovesection]

You typically digitise the footage at a reasonable rate, say no more than 320x480 as VHS is only about 250 lines in quality.

Then once you've captured it, convert it to a space saving format like DivX, this'll make your .avi file pretty small.
(Look up DivX site on Google)

Sounds like you're capturing at far too high a quality setting.

Even SVHS tape is only 400lines on a good day.

That is a common misconception that VHS is only 250 lines,
As PAL is interlaced, every two lines are summed to make a complete picture frame making it actually 576 active lines! (625 lines/50 fields) :D
That is true for all PAL standards (B,G,H,I.D.N.Nc)
Only PAL M is 525 lines/50 fields = 480 active lines
(the UK only uses PAL B & G.. NOT M)

When recording from VHS use Mpg as the file format, mpg supports interlacing and will capture the VHS better as VHS tapes are Interlaced!

Record to mpg from the VHS, then convert this mpg to avi/divx/xvid/wmv etc etc
this WILL produce far superior results than encoding "on the fly" whilst recording!
Record at 720 X 576 resolution then edit to 768 X 576 when converting to avi/divx/xvid etc (for true 4:3) or resize to 720 X 404 for 16:9 content (although most VHS stuff will be 4:3)

[1952224]

is it possible to copy vhs tapes played on a video player straight to a computer?

[captpike]

Check out this thread here

http://www.vintage-erotica-forum.com/t109396-vhs-movies-to-avi-or-mpg.html

use to use DVD Xpress myself had better luck using a DVD burner and DVDRW disc and then burn the DVD to my computer.

http://www.usb-ware.com/ezcapture-usb-video-capture.htm

CaptPike

[1952224]

thanx captpike.i was looking in the fiona cooper thread and the poster said it was drying up e.g. new material i still have quite a lot of vhs tapes which have not been posted inc.katy sanger as celia not being an expert just looking for the easiest way to convert theseto dvd

[tausi]

you need something like Dazzle DVD recorder to transfer from video tape to Dvd or directly to your Hdrive

[groovesection]

You basically need to decide which way to go
you have 2 choices (well 3 in theory)

1. Buy a DVD Recorder and connect the VHS to the DVD recorder and record direct to DVD

2. Buy what is called a TV capture device (either internal (PCI card) or external (USB Device)
(personally i would suggest PCI Internal every time.
USB well it sucks)
then its a case of connecting the VHS Player to the TV Card (Usually through the Coaxial (the old ariel type cable that used to connect TV`s & Video Recorders before SCART cables)
or you can use SCART to S-Video, if u use SCART to S-Video you will also need to connect the audio as S-Video only delivers the video signal)

3. buy a DVD/VHS Combo device and tape from VHS direct to DVD,this is probably the worst method as the unit will be affected by Macro Vision protection (most commercial cinema releases will have Macrovision on them, porn is less likely too)
http://www.hackerscatalog.com/Services/TECH_Notes/nineteen.html

Thats the first part, getting the 2 devices connected/recording

encoding is a whole other discussion and everyone has there own preferred software/technique.

For me the best results are achieved by recording to mpg2 (via PCI Internal/USB Device) (DVD will be recorded in mpg2 by default :D)
Take this mpg2 and then use VirtualdubMpeg2 to convert it to avi (over a 2 pass encode)
Import the mpg2 into Virtualdub,trim up the recording if needed.
then we get onto processing.
using the filters in Virtualdub you want to first de-interlace,
2nd resize to maintain correct aspect ratio (768 X 576 for 4:3 and 720 X 404 for 16:9) however 90% of VHS will be old 4:3
3rd.crop any black borders around the frame

At this point it is also wise to convert the audio too, mp3 @ 128kbs is perfect, but if its a music video you might want to go up to 192 or even 256kbs

and finally video compression.
i personally use XviD (as it is standalone compatible and i am a scene capper :p)
but you can use DivX, h.264 etc etc
set a decent bit rate, i would recommended 1600kbs, it is probably the best trade off between data rate & file size.
but you could go as low as 1200kbs.

run the encode stage in 2 passes and you should end up with a really good quality rip (assuming the original VHS tape is not full of tracking errors or pretty much fucked from being in the damp basement/loft for 20 years)

:D

[Sabre979]

What if the VHS is copyrighted? Can you still copy a VHS to a DVDR? I've got two 1980's movies that won't be coming out on DVD and I'd like to convert them to DVD.

[groovesection]

If the VHS is copyrighted it will have what is called Macro Vision protection
This means if you record VHS to VHS or VHS to DVD then the macro vision is also copied resulting in the recorded version being unwatchable.
You can remove this macro vision protection by using a device like this..(connected between VHS & VHS/DVD recorder)

http://www.xdimax.com/dvd/dvdredpro.html

[ErnestoGuevara]

you need something like Dazzle DVD recorder to transfer from video tape to Dvd or directly to your Hdrive

I bought one of these for about fifty quid a couple of years ago and it's not at all bad. I prevaricate slightly because the programme occasionally hangs when it's supposed to be finalising, but it usually works without any glitches.

The plus side is that you don't have to faff about with a DVD recorder: you can connect directly from the video player to your computer.

[DJones2008]

If your computer has a tv tuner card and the windows media center (or something similar) you can connect the video recorder to the computer via the antenna input.

Than choose the channel of the vcr in the media center (or any other tv software) and you can record the video just like you can record tv programmes.

There is only one problem: With Windows 7 the recording stops (not always, but sometimes) because the system has detected some form of digital rights management, even if there is no copy protection involved.

[groovesection]

That will be Macro-Vision protection mate,
Macrovision is a videotape copy protection method for VHS video cassette recorders. It is used on pre-recorded videotapes, and it seems to be more common in North America than in Europe. If you want a tape that will have Macrovision, get a Disney one :p

It exploits the automatic gain control (AGC) circuit in the recorder. The purpose of the AGC is to adjust the level of the video signal in such a way that the recording capabilities of the tape are fully used. This means that weak signals are amplified and strong ones are attenuated.

In the Macrovision method, some new signals are inserted in the non-visible portion of the picture. These signals can make the VCR think that a perfectly normal picture is suddenly way, way too bright. The AGC circuit therefore darkens it until it thinks the brightness is normal. Of course, now the _real_ picture is very dark. The picture is varied between bright and dark periodically in order to defeat simple eliminators that would just amplify the dark and murky signal back to almost normal.

This device can decode and remove it completely :D
http://www.xdimax.com/dvd/dvdredpro.html

[Moon Raker]

There is nothing I can add to the comments made previously - personally I use the methods described by 'Denaniel' in #8 and I know that those produce decent results with minimum hassle. And a customer endorsement for the 'RedPro' product in the link from 'groovesection' above - I've been using this tiny Israeli-made device for nearly 2 years and, in fact, it gets around all types of protection on both VHS (PAL and NTSC) and DVDs so IMHO is well worth the money (about 80 USD).

[monogroover]

I agree with illuminated, except that he seems to have an extra step in there that is IMO unnecessary.

After using the DVD/VHS combo (i.e. a DVD recorder = standalone player that plays VHS and DVD, recording from one to the other), I rip the DVD onto my hard drive using DVD Decrypter (freeware), which creates a VIDEO_TS folder with .ifo, .bup and .vob files. You can then open this VIDEO_TS folder in AutoGK and convert directly to AVI, using XviD. There is no need for the intermediate conversion with MPG Streamclip.

Agreed. I rip directly to vobs using mplayer, then convert from vob to avi (resizing and cropping as appropriate) using mencoder. These are command line (Linux) tools, but I wrap them in scripts to keep it nice and easy.

[playbirds]

I have some old VHS compilations that I cannot convert to file as they are NTSC and I'm on PAL system.

I've tried to convert them but it doesn't work. I can only play them using a NTSC VCR.

Can anyone help?

[hamhound]

NTSC Never The Same Colour Twice!!!

Most video software will have NTSC compatibility. Your best bet is to get some hardware that will enable you to digitize the tapes into your computer directly from your NTSC VCR.

You could look at something like the Canopus advc 110 box, which is a firewire based converter. It does mean shelling out a few quid though!

[dohupa]

^^^^

That's my setup - the pricey, but quality option. Alternatively, you can buy a TV card with composite output to plug your NTSC VCR in. All the you have to do then, is set up the software for NTSC Standard or Wide 48KHz say and you're ready to go. :thumbsup:

[groovesection]

NTSC Never The Same Colour Twice!!!


lol

National Television System Committee

[Brooksie]

My issue is similar... I have a ton of Betamax NTSC videos with loads of porn (some bits quite rare) jammed with trailers and everything. I have no idea how to get them into a shareable format. I had a multi-region Beta VCR, but it broke and I can't find anyone who can fix it. Grrr!

[dohupa]

So, what is the point telling us you have rare porn that you cannot share? :confused:

[Brooksie]

The hope that someone might suggest a way to be able to share it? After all, this is the help and guides section.

[dohupa]

Don't think we ever had a success story of anyone sending the tapes he was struggling with to somebody else. I do recall such posts at VEF in the past where somebody would volunteer and suddenly there was dead silence on the other end. :rolleyes:

[Astatine]

The betamax story goes beyond porn. The National Sound Archive in the UK put all its rare recordings on to betamax. With the passing of the technology they've been hoovering up spares and machines. Surely someone has one in the attic somewhere? Alternatively, if we knew the rare titles, maybe a VHS equivalent could be found?

[Brooksie]

I can well imagine :)

I just wish I knew how to fix the front-loading mechanism on my Beta VCR (it keeps spitting the tapes out). If I could get the tapes to stay in and play I think I could get them into a manageable format. They're like a white elephant mocking me! I got them back when you could order adult stuff from ebay. About 90% of the stuff has subsequently turned up online, but there's still some nuggets (I think) in them thar hills.

[rotobott]

The hope that someone might suggest a way to be able to share it? After all, this is the help and guides section.

You could buy a betamax player on Ebay for about $250 transfer your tapes then sell it for the same price, they're still holding their value for some reason.

[Brooksie]

The betamax story goes beyond porn. The National Sound Archive in the UK put all its rare recordings on to betamax. With the passing of the technology they've been hoovering up spares and machines. Surely someone has one in the attic somewhere? Alternatively, if we knew the rare titles, maybe a VHS equivalent could be found?

So this is why I haven't been able to get a damn multi-region replacement Beta?!!

I haven't been able to go through the tapes in several years, so I'm sketchy as to what's on them. But I do recall many many many porn trailers from the late 70's / early 80's, and films like 'The Executive Lady' / 'Macho Women' which I don't think have turned up on here yet.

You could buy a betamax player on Ebay for about $250 transfer your tapes then sell it for the same price, they're still holding their value for some reason.

This is what I did when I first got the tapes. Problem is, I'm in the UK, so not only do I need a player that can play multi-region which makes it harder, but for some reason the players have become really scarce (if you can find one) and cost an arm and a leg. Difficult.

[playbirds]

So, what is the point telling us you have rare porn that you cannot share? :confused:

To see if someone had a solution so that I could share, of course. :rolleyes:

[Brooksie]

Sorry dude, I was piggybacking on your thread. I have a suggestion for you: Most VCR's made in the years before their decline were multi-region, so if you look around you should be able to find one that can play the tapes (if you don't already have one) from second hand stores and charity shops. If you then look around you should be able to find a DVD recorder that can record from NTSC tapes, like this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sony-RDR-GX350-DVD-Recorder-Boxed-/190456106680?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_Video_DVDPla yers_Recorders&hash=item2c58118eb8

Then you can stick them on a DVD and rip them to your PC as files - job done!

[dohupa]

To see if someone had a solution so that I could share, of course. :rolleyes:
Err... I was talking to Brooksie? :confused: I have answered your question in the 1st page - a post you have actually thanked. :rolleyes:

[playbirds]

Oh, ok dohupa, cheers :)

I can play them fine as I have an NTSC player but when I try to record it on my DVD Recorder it doesn't work due to the different format.

I think my Sony DVD recorder only records PAL signals. When you try to record NTSC tapes I just end up with a blank screen.

In fact I do have a Sony RDR-GX350 and to my knowledge it doesn't record NTSC

[avoyom]

Try to use the iuvcr program, It can easily convert to NTSC_433 (which is the concrete format to convert from NTSC to PAL for european countries) into PAL. Please, let me know if you could fix your problems ;)

[Brooksie]

In fact I do have a Sony RDR-GX350 and to my knowledge it doesn't record NTSC

I have one too... and it does! You go to 'Initial Setup' - 'Input Line System' - 'NTSC'. It won't autodetect a change, you have to tell it what you're putting in.

Job done!

If you're trying to burn from a pre-recorded tape it might have macrovision on it, for which you'd need a macrovision remover.

[Puhbear69]

We are talking here of different hardware technologies:

- recording NTSC to a PC
- recording NTSC to a DVD - recorder

Similar in both cases (converting into PAL): the hardware must know NTSC, else it must fail. I think the most modern recorders and TV-cards will do nowadays both (this looks different, if you come up with a SECAM tape :D ). For both (recorder & TV card) it's a matter of the settings.

When you record from a NTSC tape of a "newer" tape recorder, it converts NTSC to PAL60, watchable on a TV screen (one does not notice), but causes trouble (interferences) at the PC record (must know PAL60 too). Standard PAL is PAL(50 2x25frames/sec) from the recorder. In this case it's better to record straight (if possible by the recorder) NTSC to NTSC and convert it in a second step via software to PAL.

Remember:
PAL and NTSC are having different framrates and lines (resolution), the color signal is similar.
SECAM is similar to PAL with framrate and lines, but the color signal is added behind the frame. :(

@playbirds: 'Brooksie' posted the solution of your problem, read about the settings of your DVD recorder, record the NTSC source to NTSC target (line out - line in !!!!) and you can convert it in a second step at your PC. The second step is optional ( watching it at the PC !!!). Nevertheless your record will need an improvement at the second step; I've been never happy with my records.

BTW: Betamax and Video-2000 where better standards than VHS in the past, but VHS (JVC) made the race at least. Much later S-VHS could top this former quality of both.

[Retro_XXX_Buff]

Just wondering if there's anything easy to use out there, where I can pop my VHS tapes in my VCR player and allows me to view it on my PC's monitor and transfer it to AVI format.

As you guys may know, I've been using VHS 2 DVD Wizard in the save as WMV Best Quality format which automatically puts the digital wmv files at an acceptable 400 to 1 GB file size range and the audio appears to be in sync.

I got a complaint about the wmv files on whole movies I was contributing about lacking in quality and to try to adjust my software to AVI. I tried a few transfers with AVI on VHS 2 DVD Wizard but the files are huge like 30 GB and the sound is out of sync.

I don't mind paying for something different so long as it works for the technically challenged like me. Maybe a one click system that self adjusts to handle the transfer automatically ?

I have a bunch of tapes stacking up that I want to post up on VEF, limited on time (away from wife) that I have to figure out settings, etc. and start to contribute again.

Suggestions are appreciated.

I wish there was a way to run the saved wmv file thru a program and the quality could be enhanced.

Thank you,
Retro_XXX_Buff

[USBPepsi]

Just wondering if there's anything easy to use out there, where I can pop my VHS tapes in my VCR player and allows me to view it on my PC's monitor and transfer it to AVI format.

As you guys may know, I've been using VHS 2 DVD Wizard in the save as WMV Best Quality format which automatically puts the digital wmv files at an acceptable 400 to 1 GB file size range and the audio appears to be in sync.

I got a complaint about the wmv files on whole movies I was contributing about lacking in quality and to try to adjust my software to AVI. I tried a few transfers with AVI on VHS 2 DVD Wizard but the files are huge like 30 GB and the sound is out of sync.

I don't mind paying for something different so long as it works for the technically challenged like me. Maybe a one click system that self adjusts to handle the transfer automatically ?

I have a bunch of tapes stacking up that I want to post up on VEF, limited on time (away from wife) that I have to figure out settings, etc. and start to contribute again.

Suggestions are appreciated.

I wish there was a way to run the saved wmv file thru a program and the quality could be enhanced.

Thank you,
Retro_XXX_Buff

I haven't used one for years, but you'll probably want to Google "external video capture device" (an internal one would run a little faster, but if you want something easy to set up, you should go external).

There are dozens of choices, but you'll probably be better off, if it's your first time, going with one of the more basic models. Make sure that it includes the software needed to do the capturing, as many of the "firewire" devices are simply the hardware (sometimes literally just a cable), and don't provide you with any assistance in setting up capture.

It doesn't cost a lot to set up capturing capability. I just don't do it from VHS any more, because I got everything transferred years ago. When my old device broke down, I didn't bother replacing it. The few times I've needed to transfer video since, I've just sent it into my DVD recorder, then ripped the results into my PC. I lose a little picture quality, but it's fast and easy, using equipment I already have in the house.

Oh, and although you can buy most of what you need online, usually for a better price, the last time I needed a device it was right on the shelf at the nearest electronics store (Best Buy). I had to talk the salesman down from one of the higher-end models, but I'm used to that...

[dohupa]

Just wondering if there's anything easy to use out there, where I can pop my VHS tapes in my VCR player and allows me to view it on my PC's monitor and transfer it to AVI format.
This has been discussed extensively in the past - if you search for VHS you'll find several threads here at VEF. :thumbsup:

[BennyHillFan]

What was the best "older" video capture card ?

I'm thinking of setting up a spare PC as a dedicated video capture station, to capture some VHS tapes and a couple of laserdiscs. Signal will be composite video and stereo audio (yellow/red/white). PC will be an older P4 (2.8 or 3.0 ghz) with PCI (not PCI-express) slots and running Windows XP Pro.

I'm assuming that for my purpose there's no point getting a brand-new capture card when, because of the digital transition a year or so ago, older analog-only TV cards are a dime a dozen used and probably just as good for this. The local surplus shop has a whole bin of analog TV cards for $5 each - WinTVs, ATI TV-wonder and All-in-Wonder, Pinnacle, plus any number of unknown cards.

My question is: When I go sort through this bin of older TV cards, is there any one card that stands out above the others as being THE card to look for ? Or to stay away from? Bearing in mind that I don't care about the TV tuner section, only the composite input quality?

Or, for composite capture, is one card just as good as any other ?

[John C. Holmes]

Interesting question:

Does anyone know how to record VHS onto a Mac? It's a different beast from a PC or laptop so I had to ask.

[dohupa]

What was the best "older" video capture card ?
Canopus - they had the best products as far as quality and I am sure you can get a good deal on a used card off eBay. :thumbsup:

I still have the Canopus ADVC-1394 installed; bought it brand new ages ago. :rolleyes:

[monogroover]

An easy and (these days) relatively cheap way to do this is to hook up a DVD recorder to your VCR. It's very easy to rip the resultant DVDs to your PC or Mac, where you can convert, edit, crop, adjust contrast and otherwise enhance them as much as you like.

[Retro_XXX_Buff]

Ok, so I figured how the Super software works to cut a VHS transferred 62 GB movie file down to a more acceptable 800 MB - 2 GB file. I'm happy to get to this point, but I feel that the quality can still be improved. The quality looks a little better than the WMV 's I had been using and the audio sync is a little "off" (actors words don't match the movements of their mouth.)

1) I like transferring from original VHS (many of which still play clear, great) to preserve to a digital AVI format because many OOP tapes were never released on DVD and sometimes the DVD versions cut out parts.

2) I'm starting to stack up a big pile of VHS tapes in my gunsafe (wife doesn't approve) for safe keeping and would eventually prefer to have no VHS tapes at all, liking the idea of eventually burning them to DVD or leave on external storage drive. I'm running out of room to hide these things, and don't have the time to transfer VHS at anytime I want.

Ideally I was hoping I could continue to do the basic VHS to AVI transfer then start letting go of the VHS tapes to make space. I was then wanting to use this basic AVI file and practice on the copy of that file.

....Or should I just keep all these good quality VHS tapes until I perfect the AVI transfer settings ?

:confused:

[forumsaregreat]

I use a combo Daewoo DF4501PV video/dvd recorder to make the DVD - copy that in full to my pc then run the results through handbrake to give a hd conversion into h264 and/or clone dvd mobile to give a good quality avi. Very simple,quick and effective.

PS - I always chose the best , highest quality on all settings and have not used the vhs tapes since. :)

Hope this helps, ebay is your friend for the hardware.

[Kalidoxoff974]

Hello, i'm trying to do my best in english ;o)

- The best way to do a transfert VHS to DVD is to use a combo that include VHS reader and DVD recorder.
- Be carefull if you have some white dust on the VHS tape : rewind the tape a lot of time with an old VHS reader to remove the dust. But never do that with a specific equipment to rewind tapes because it can break the tape. If it happend, you can open the tape case and repair the tape with special ruban (scotch ?).
- If you want to use two separate machines, VHS reader and DVD recorder, try to have a TBC - a Time Base Corrector - used by professionnals to "repair" the analog signal. It was a very expensive equipment but now, with the numeric signal, it's not more in use and you can get it for a few money (or try to rent it).
- And so, the first thing to do is... to have a look to the commercial market for to see if you can buy your VHS in DVD !
Bon courage !

[grossnex]

Ideally I was hoping I could continue to do the basic VHS to AVI transfer then start letting go of the VHS tapes to make space. I was then wanting to use this basic AVI file and practice on the copy of that file.

....Or should I just keep all these good quality VHS tapes until I perfect the AVI transfer settings ?

:confused:

How you doin' my brother?

When I 1st started ripping my vast XXX DVD collection, it was for the purpose of moving it all to an external drive so I didn't have all the disks laying around. Of course, my knowledge on how to create a quality rip was severely lacking at the time compared to now. At any rate, after I created all my initial rips, I gave all my DVDs away. I've been kicking myself in the butt for that decision ever since. Take it from me: think about what you had to go through to acquire those tapes & how much better you're going to be at ripping them after a ton of trial & error. I wouldn't get rid of those tapes until I was confident I got the best quality rip I could get. :cool:

[Puhbear69]

Ok, so I figured how the Super software works to cut a VHS transferred 62 GB movie file down to a more acceptable 800 MB - 2 GB file. I'm happy to get to this point, but I feel that the quality can still be improved. The quality looks a little better than the WMV 's I had been using and the audio sync is a little "off" (actors words don't match the movements of their mouth.)

1) I like transferring from original VHS (many of which still play clear, great) to preserve to a digital AVI format because many OOP tapes were never released on DVD and sometimes the DVD versions cut out parts.

2) I'm starting to stack up a big pile of VHS tapes in my gunsafe (wife doesn't approve) for safe keeping and would eventually prefer to have no VHS tapes at all, liking the idea of eventually burning them to DVD or leave on external storage drive. I'm running out of room to hide these things, and don't have the time to transfer VHS at anytime I want.

Ideally I was hoping I could continue to do the basic VHS to AVI transfer then start letting go of the VHS tapes to make space. I was then wanting to use this basic AVI file and practice on the copy of that file.

....Or should I just keep all these good quality VHS tapes until I perfect the AVI transfer settings ?

:confused:

First of all:
Never save to ripped vid directly to an AVI file !!! That will be left to a second process. Save the ripped vid to a .MPG-file which has less compression. Else you will lose frames (or the audio sync.); how much appends on the processor and clock speed .
Resulting .MPG rips will have about 4 to 8 GB appending on the resolution and and of course the noises. Secondary or tertiary tape copies having much noises = an increasing data stream. Older NTSC tapes can also be worthless junk, I' had often noticed (the original, not talking of copies).

Never save to an external drive, except you make a copy of your ripped file. Make sure your internal drives are switched to DMA-access (usually they are).

The size of a regular vid (the AVI-file) from 800 to 2 GB from a tape is realistic.

For any beginner it's a good idea to convert from VHS to DVD and next to AVI fomat. The settings are usually fixed by the recorder, and it's a specialist on hardware converting too, much faster as the most PCs.

I've been personally a bit disapointed of the result of a recorder by a semi professinal point of view, but I have to repeat: for a beginner it's the best way to have acceptable results with it.

But to put an idea out of one head: a good result will need some time in the finish - for sure!

[skidnut]

I haven't researched this topic in depth yet, but offhand, how might I convert the digitized file size down to a reasonable size and still maintain a quality vid? That's the trade off, I guess, but the avi format is the way to go? A lot of avi vids seem to be of pretty good quality and of reason size (less than 250 mb or so). The captured video files I get from my Mac movie maker are huge (several Gb).

[Xum]

The best way do digitize VHS in the highest quality possible before you need $10k+ on professional broadcast quality gear is this fine machine:

JVC HR-DVS3 (consumer version)
JVC SR-VS30 (professional version, no difference apart from the color)

These where introduced around 2002 and have very good quality VHS internals, and direct firewire output to plug in your computer. This gives much better picture quality than using USB digitizers with a composite signal (yellow RCA plug).

It also skips all the hassle with DVD's. Just capture the DV signal in your favorite video editor (iMovie works well) and export in your format of choice (which should be h.264).

They pop up on second hand sites every now and then for around 200-300 bucks.

[zorin]

I haven't researched this topic in depth yet, but offhand, how might I convert the digitized file size down to a reasonable size and still maintain a quality vid? That's the trade off, I guess, but the avi format is the way to go? A lot of avi vids seem to be of pretty good quality and of reason size (less than 250 mb or so). The captured video files I get from my Mac movie maker are huge (several Gb).

The thing to keep in mind in the case of an AVI file is that .avi is a container file and NOT a video format. This means that the actual format of the audio/video stream within it can vary from .avi file to .avi file.
One .avi file can contain e.g. an mpg4 video stream and another can contain a divx video stream. Older video capture cards can e.g. produce an avi file with an mjpeg (motion jpeg, a jpeg format optimised for motion capture) formatted video stream.
The size of the .avi file resulting from your conversion process depends for some part on the actual codec used for converting the video stream. More modern codecs (e.g. H.264) produce smaller sized files than older formats while achieving a better or at least similar quality video)
Contributing factors are choosing either a constant bitrate (CBR) or a variable bit rate (VBR) video conversion. The latter (VBR) generally results in smaller file sizes because it lowers the video stream's bitrate during scenes with less action/rapid motion (where the change in video information between two consecutive video frames is less than during a high speed scene), thus resulting in a smaller file.
On the down side VBR requires two passes through the entire video data in order to achieve the optimal result which means a longer conversion process.
The H.264 video codec is one of the most commonly used codecs with HD content. It would be my first choice when converting video from one format to another.

[wasp9166]

i convert everything to mpg using tmpgenc

then it's burnable and i can edit it beforehand

[dhream]

Unfortunately I had to dump my tapes last year in May as I moved to Singapore (I have since left that straitened sad overcrowded little city) but at the time I could not risk customs finding them in my personal effects (they never checked).
I tried to offer my tapes here for FREE to anyone in the Sydney area who would pick them up, but the Mods canned that post as they were worried it would seem like 'trading' porn.
A lot of classics were lost, I'm afraid, and most of this info arrived far too late for me to even start, but thanks y'all for posting. Earlier technical info was just so full of jargon and expensive gear and arcane issues with the magnetic signals, I gave up on the idea.

[lagerlout]

h://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5390

I have always used one one these [ mine was brought years ago so is different ] kills any crap / copywrite issues coming from the VCR . Gives a better pic even cuts down the noise bar issues but doesn't get rid of it altogether. Well worth the bucks . slots in between your vcr and recorder

[Art McBride]

I too have used TMPGENC MPEG Editor to copy tapes. I also used a "Video Stabilizer" which was really a Macrovision scrubber. I also built a scrubber from a circuit diagram in Popular electronics way, way back. Both seemed to behave about the same. When I had edited the .mpg file to where I wanted it, I then converted it to AVI using AutoGordianKnot- I think it was. Nowadays there are video converters that work very well. Free video converter, Hamster etc, etc. I also got a WD external drive and saved everything with encryption. I have never had a problem with it. I used a PC with two DVD players and wrote a batch file to send to the WD drive.

[shompa]

I have transfered video to digital form since 1997. Back then trying to use a PC to do that didn't work, so I bought my first mac. Back in 2001 Apple was the first computer manufacture so release DVD burners and had a monopoly market for many years DVD video editing. Almost all commercial DVDs back then was done with DVD studio pro.

To maintain the best video quality I have alway digitised the video in a lossless format: DV and then compressed in MP4/MPEG2.

The biggest problem for me when grabbing video tapes was when the source was bad. Dropped frames. With dropped frames the sound would often be out of sync.

Hardware:
I use different kind of EyeTVs. The older ones have processors in them offloading the work for the computer. I grab in the highest bitstream and transfer in in DV. Then fire up final cut pro and check if the film is ok. Fix sound/colour.

The MPEG2/MPEG4 codec in Compressor is by far the best codec I have worked with. The problem is that it takes enormous amount of time. If I just want a quick and dirty encoding I use Handbrake.

The last year more and more video is on the web in MP4 format thanks to iPad. I wish that more used it especially 7 years ago :). AVI/MKV is not hardware accelerated. MP4 have always been it. Even modern computers have sometimes problem playing high definition MKV/AVI stuff. You need a really fast computer to play HD stuff without acceleration. (3ghz+). With MP4 acceleration a 1ghz computer can play the files.

EyeTV
+
Finalcut Pro
+
Compressor
is by far the best setup I have used to grab stuff.